How Courage and Creativity in Data Use Moves the Needle Against Workforce Challenges

Transcript

Michael Schmierer [00:00:03]:
Why do workforce development efforts often feel fragmented and siloed? What if we could revolutionize the way we develop and support our workforce, using data and technology to bridge skills gaps and drive economic growth? As director of workforce and economic development here at Resultant, these are the questions that I ask myself frequently, which is why we're here. I'm Michael Schmierer and this is my takeover of Data-Driven Leadership. In this four-episode miniseries, I'll be joined by several industry experts as we discuss how data and technology can transform workforce systems, enhance job matching, and support workforce readiness. The goal is to provide you with valuable insights and practical strategies that can help drive transformational change, inspire action, and foster collaboration among stakeholders. You won't want to miss this. Let's dive in.

Hi everyone. This week we're excited to have Emily Fabiano on the podcast.

Michael Schmierer [00:00:57]:
Emily is the founder and CEO of Workmorphis. Workmorphis helps to accelerate transformation through dynamic partnerships between both the public sector and the private sector. We dig into what those collaborations look like, including how nonprofits and philanthropy play a role. And of course, data and technology can't wait to share the conversation. Emily, welcome to the podcast.

Emily Fabiano [00:01:21]:
Thank you, Michael. So excited to be with you today.

Michael Schmierer [00:01:24]:
Thanks for joining us. Obviously, the name of the podcast is Data-Driven Leadership. So just want to start there. Kind of very broad what does data-driven leadership mean to you?

Emily Fabiano [00:01:33]:
So my background is in the public sector and now I work, I have the pleasure of working across different sectors on workforce and economic development initiatives, and data is foundational to all of that. So to me, data-driven leadership is looking at the data that's available to us, especially in the public sector, to empower people with information to make better informative decisions, including policymakers, but also people, especially people who are job seeking.

Michael Schmierer [00:02:02]:
Yeah, and we work a lot around that at Resultant, and I'm sure you do as well. The amount of data that states have access to—and some are using in really innovative, cool ways—can really empower the citizen and drive better outcomes for them, really.

Let's start with thinking about navigating cross-agency collaborations. Obviously, workforce is an entity that isn't necessarily owned by one state agency. If you look at the K-12 space, there's typically one agency that's owning all the K-12 work. When you look at workforce, sometimes there's a labor agency that owns some programs and then a state workforce board that owns others, more an economic development agency. So, can you just talk about the complexities of managing workforce initiatives, workforce projects when it comes to multi-agency collaboratives?

Emily Fabiano [00:02:51]:
Absolutely. And this is a topic that I love talking about because it is so complex. But I think when you really break it down, we're all working toward similar goals. So just to quickly kind of align on definitions, when Workmorphis, when we talk about cross-sector, what we're referring to as collaborations between government, industry, education and philanthropy, just to do a quick gut check, how does that align with your definition at Resultant of cross-sector? Is that similar or are there differences?

Michael Schmierer [00:03:19]:
That's very similar. You know, when we think about the workforce ecosystem, we have to think about those program providers at the local level and the local workforce boards, the regional and local economic development and philanthropy plays a big role in funding their research or some of those programs. So we do think about it holistically, the same way that you're viewing it.

Emily Fabiano [00:03:40]:
Awesome. Well, I like to describe it this way. At its core, workforce development is really simple. It's the simple equation of supply and demand, and the supply is the supply, supply of skilled workers. And of course, the demand is open jobs in the marketplace. So when we think about cross-sector initiatives or cross-agency initiatives for that matter, what we're really talking about is bringing together the organizations and people who are driving demand with those that are driving supply. So in this case, demand is employers and economic development, the creation of jobs. And then supply would be the workforce providers.

Emily Fabiano [00:04:17]:
So the public workforce system, including those workforce boards, job centers, as well as education and training providers. And one of the key problems or challenges that can come up in these conversations is a simple communication barrier. So in our experience, different sectors can talk about the same problem very differently. So to the employer community, they might be focused on workforce development from the perspective of value or return on investment. And then the same workforce providers would talk about the same problem as how do we create success for students. What we're really talking about is successful employment outcomes, which is what everyone wants, but we just talk about it a little bit differently. So I think a key component of navigating cross-sector and cross-agency discussions is using the language of the folks that you're talking to, really understanding the language that they use and mirroring that. And then, if you're in a room with a lot of different sectors, trying to kind of bridge the gap and use intentional messaging to show that everybody's working toward the same goals.

Emily Fabiano [00:05:23]:
So that's one barrier. Another would be trust. This is a really important one that I feel like has gotten more urgent recently. Workforce challenges have been a key problem on the minds of employers since I started in this industry, and it's been pretty persistent. And we've had exponentially more conversations about workforce, more funding about workforce. But unfortunately, I just think our outcomes haven't really kept pace. We still have skills mismatches, low enrollment, and post-secondary. We have people being left out of the workforce.

Emily Fabiano [00:06:02]:
And so in our industry, when we think about getting agencies and sectors together, we have to think about building back that trust, bringing people together around action, not just more talk and studying the problem. So those are some of the challenges that we see in some of my preliminary advice on how to help navigate.

Michael Schmierer [00:06:25]:
Those are really good insights. And I think one of the things that we find, too, is you have to meet people where they're at, whether it's employers or citizens, and really understand who they are and what their need is to build that trust and then taking that holistic approach. In your previous life, your previous role, you worked as the executive director of Ohio Governor's Office of Workforce Transformation, and you helped stand up a very successful program in that state called TechCred. Can you walk us through how you brought all these players together to build that successful program in Ohio?

Emily Fabiano [00:06:59]:
Yeah, absolutely. So I had the pleasure of working for two governors in Ohio, and most recently, I led that office for the DeWine/Husted administration. This is a key priority of the DeWine/Husted administration, Workforce Development 2019. When they were elected, the lieutenant governor took on workforce development as a key priority for the state. And one of the challenges that we were hearing about at the time was that employers felt our education and training systems weren't keeping pace with technology and how quickly skills were evolving in the workplace. So one of the top priorities was to build a program in response to employers that would help them invest in upskilling, particularly those employers that maybe were on the fence or hadn't really invested in upskilling and training, but would be motivated to do so with some support from the state. So that's how it came about. But what I think is really unique and has made TechCred successful is that we brought employers in from the very beginning.

Emily Fabiano [00:08:05]:
We clearly defined the problem with them, and we invited them to the table, elevated them to, like, a co-leadership level with us to design the program from the ground up. We didn't start with a box of here's how we've done it before. We designed it with their needs in mind. And employers are the main drivers of TechCred now. So in the first year, our goal was to fund 10,000 credentials. Within the first year, we surpassed that goal; we beat it. But the lieutenant governor recently announced that the program, since 2019, has now surpassed 100,000 credentials. And that is, it's very exciting, and it's all because of the employer community.

Emily Fabiano [00:08:47]:
They rallied around the idea. They helped us design it. They're the ones who make the program possible because they get reimbursed for investing in upskilling in technology focused areas, and then they also advocate for it. So TechCred has continued to receive increased funding, and that is because employers want to see more of it. They want to do more upskilling. So it's really a testament to the successes that can come from that cross-sector engagement. And of course, an incredibly key part of that was talking with the public workforce system and the providers to figure out what the best role is of everyone and how we make sure we're not duplicating anything that already exists, but rather investing in an area that was a gap before.

Michael Schmierer [00:09:32]:
Sounds like you used some really good organizational change management techniques there of building the case for change, bringing people to the table, defining roles and responsibilities, and without that type of buy in, and honestly, it sounds like some human-centered design work, it's not possible to make this transformational change that the workforce system has to undergo, given where the demographics of our country are, with retirements of baby boomers and the generations coming after not being as large.

So it's really critical that states start to think about states and the entire ecosystem start to think about this stuff sooner rather than later. You hit on a couple communication and trust being some barriers earlier. I'm wondering if you can talk a little bit about how data plays a role in either breaking down those barriers or other challenges that you've experienced, whether it be data and operability, or technology and other systems.

Emily Fabiano [00:10:27]:
It is at the foundation of everything that we do and everything that I think we as a sector need to be focused on. When we talk about some of the challenges, right, we talked about trust and outcomes, and in order to produce outcomes, we need to be able to measure. And where I think we have the most opportunity is with, as you mentioned before, all of the data sources that we have accessible to us, especially in the public sector. And the way that we organize those data systems is kind of the way we organize government, right? We put it into the silos of early childhood education, K-12 education, post-secondary education, and then workforce training. And there are all these different kind of snapshots. But as you know, when we look at a user journey, somebody throughout the journey of their career, all of those things blend together, and you can really start to see trends when you look at data across different agencies and break down those silos. Now, it sounds easy. It's one of the most challenging things that you can do in government, as you know, because you have data privacy concerns, you have different data collection methods and frankly, different systems, a lot of which are outdated.

Emily Fabiano [00:11:50]:
So it is a very difficult project to undergo. But I think it is the absolute key move that all states need to be thinking about. Because until we can look at trends, until we can see across the different agencies that make up somebody's career journey, we're not going to be able to produce the outcomes and we're not going to be able to measure the outcomes that we need over time to make better informed decisions and to empower citizens to make those better informed career choices.

Michael Schmierer [00:12:19]:
I'm really glad you hit that at the end there about the citizen, right? Because it's all about that. Like, if we can't get this, the constituent or the citizen to help be more aware of what's possible for them from an academic pathway or a career pathway, it's really hard to make any progress. So I'm glad you kind of hit on that point at the end there that it is the end user, it's the citizen, the constituent at the end of the day, that we need to help make that impact, too.

Emily Fabiano [00:12:44]:
And you mentioned the user journey, the user experience, and that is such a critical piece of this. We have to design with that end user in mind. And that's why I think it's so cool what you guys are doing with the state of Indiana and other areas to look across different data systems and really put the information in the hands of the person to determine what's best for them in their career and to be empowered by information, but not to be prescribed a solution.

Michael Schmierer [00:13:15]:
We're really excited about the work that Indiana is doing with their pivot project. It kind of hits on all the interoperability and data that you just spoke very well to. Not to use a pun here, but let's pivot to maybe a little bit of a different topic and the role of cross-sector policy and the work that you do there. How does Workmorphis engage with national nonprofits and state agencies to really drive this innovation that we've been talking about?

Emily Fabiano [00:13:39]:
I love that question. And in order to answer the how, I think it's important to talk about the why part of the equation. So to do that, I'll talk about the situation that I believe that we're in, some of the challenges we're seeing, and then our approach to the solution. So the situation is, national nonprofits have valuable resources, funding, and expertise to help states and local organizations advance their policy ideas and initiatives. And these nonprofits seek out partnerships with states that have aligned goals to support their initiatives. So ideally, in theory, these partnerships would be fantastic, right? Because you've got the funder or national nonprofit coming in with resources and expertise. You've got the state that's capable of changing policy, of implementing new programs, and it should be a perfect matchup. But in reality, things don't always go as planned with these partnerships.

Emily Fabiano [00:14:39]:
And we've seen that, because we've worked with national nonprofits, we've worked with states designing workforce initiatives, we've seen where it goes really well and where it doesn't go so well. In my experience, our team's experience, and from talking with leaders in both of these spaces, there are two key reasons why these partnerships can fail. The first is solving the wrong problems. So imagine giving someone a gift that they never wanted, right?

Michael Schmierer [00:15:08]:
All of us one time. Probably.

Emily Fabiano [00:15:10]:
Exactly. It's not appreciated and it doesn't get used, right? Sometimes that can, can be the case with philanthropic funding as well, because sometimes people, while they have good intentions, don't ask the state, is this a real problem for you? Is this a problem that you're motivated to solve? So that can cause a lack of buy-in, that can prevent initiatives from gaining traction in the first place or make it hard to develop those partnerships, and then that leads to the next area where things can go wrong, which is overloading state teams. These types of initiatives have, they require a lot of investment of time from states because they're really the people who are implementing on the ground. So that involves staff at agencies really being engaged in these initiatives, but they're doing that on top of their existing responsibilities. So without the buy-in, without the state teams, you really have a situation where people are not empowered to implement or don't have the capacity to implement, and then you get into transitions and leadership, and things can lose momentum very quickly. So our perspective on this is, there's so much funding out there for workforce initiatives.

Emily Fabiano [00:16:25]:
There are so many great needs at the state level, especially.

Michael Schmierer [00:16:56]:
That's an amazing mission because everyone's trying to solve this, right? No one's going waking up one day and being like, I'm just not doing the right thing or I'm going to torpedo this. But it is about finding those right matches to really make the holistic change that needs to happen. Can you talk to us about a real-world example where you've seen this play out, where it's been successful?

Emily Fabiano [00:17:17]:
One of those examples would be in the work-based learning space. So we have worked with an organization called ExcelinEd that is focused on national education policy issues, and they had identified work-based learning as a key policy priority and Ohio as a key state. So we helped them build relationships in Ohio with key policymakers and government leaders, but also employers and educators who are involved in creating work-based learning or career-focused experiences for students, because this is a real problem that Ohio is committed to solving.

So we were able to get people in a room together, learn from their experiences about work-based learning policies that exist today, barriers that prevent students from accessing those opportunities or prevent employers from creating those opportunities, and came up with a set of policy recommendations that are now guiding the state Department of Education and Workforce focus on work-based learning policy. So that's one example.

We've also worked with Jobs for the Future's Center for Justice and Economic Advancement in looking at the barriers and challenges faced by people with records in obtaining education and employment opportunities. Looking at the policy landscape in states and trying to figure out, Jobs for the Future has resources. They have policy guidance, they have programs for employers to implement fair chance hiring.

Emily Fabiano [00:18:55]:
And so our mission is to help them figure out where that can be best put to use in a state environment.

Michael Schmierer [00:19:02]:
Those are two really good examples, and I love the corrections one there, because when we think about solving the workforce challenges, we have to look at every population, and every population is going to maybe be a little bit different in how we approach it. Do you want to talk a little bit about the how on that example? I'm interested how your team kind of goes in and approaches that.

Emily Fabiano [00:19:22]:
Yeah, absolutely. So we get really deep into understanding the policy environment in states because we believe that's foundational to creating a good match. We look at what does the governor's office care about? What are they talking about? What are some of the agency priorities and programs? Are we seeing investment in these areas? Are we seeing people talking about the problems and then we really evaluate those programs and policies to see if there's true commitment in those areas? That is an initial part of the research. We help kind of recommend areas that would be beneficial for a national nonprofit, for example, to invest in. And then we go into that state and have conversations to figure out. We believe this isn't a need. Based on what we've learned about your state, tell us what the problem means to you.

Emily Fabiano [00:20:16]:
And that's when we can determine if there's enough buy-in to get governor's office leadership on board, identify the state agency leaders, and really start to define, define what some clear roles and responsibilities would look like for an investment that would occur at the state level. And then once the team is identified with clear roles and responsibilities for the project, we can help stay engaged to help overcome obstacles as they come up in the implementation process as well.

Michael Schmierer [00:20:49]:
That's really cool and fun work, I'm sure, as well, you get to work with a lot of different constituencies there, and I'm sure it's not easy. I mean, you’ve made it sound easy, but I'm sure it's nothing. Not always the easiest thing to go in there and do.

Let's talk about employers a little bit. So we talked about them at the beginning. They're obviously kind of the benefactors at the end of the workforce development process or helping people get more skills. How do you encourage employers to get engaged and stay engaged in this process?

Emily Fabiano [00:21:16]:
Employers are the key customer, or one of the key customers to workforce development. It's essential that employers understand how much of an influence they can have on workforce and education efforts. And in order to have that influence, they have to be at the table. And I think part of the responsibility, of course, is on us as workforce and economic development leaders to make sure that we are properly conveying when to come to the table, how, and with what information. But employers really should be engaged in helping to guide the design of initiatives that are really meant to meet their needs, right? So our workforce system, by design, by definition, cannot produce the supply without knowing what the demand looks like. And that's the role that employers play in successful workforce development.

Michael Schmierer [00:22:11]:
And we're doing a disservice if we're not understanding that. Right? If we're helping, if people are getting upskilled in a credential that is actually not hiring, we can lose that trust with the individual because they might have just spent some of their own money or went through an application process to get funding to pay for that. And then on the back end, there's no one hiring or they're not making the wages that they were promised. So I think that level of transparency is critical.

Emily Fabiano [00:22:37]:
Absolutely. And that's, again, another reason why we're really excited about the work that you guys are doing with Pivot and the Department of Workforce Development in Indiana. In a recent conversation with Josh on our podcast, we talked about the process behind that and how you were able to take UI wage records and data available to the state, as well as labor market information and kind of guide people toward the opportunities that are in high demand that are going to lead to higher wages. And that's what we need to see more of because honestly, it may sound simple, but it's hard to get in a room with employers and really nail down where demand exists in a specific and consistent way. So better leveraging data sources that are available to us while also supplementing with some of these conversations to help guide program design based on their experiences.

Michael Schmierer [00:23:30]:
I believe that's the right balance when you're working with employers and employers that are going to be listening to this podcast. I'm interested if a CEO is listening to this and saying, yeah, I need to get engaged, who from their team should they tap? Is it the CEO? Is it the director of human resources? Where do you see that kind of coming together?

Emily Fabiano [00:23:48]:
I think it's a joint effort. The leadership buy-in at the top is essential because if it's coming from the C-suite, that's how you know it's going to be prioritized. But it's not just that. It's also leadership at the HR level, both, you know, executive and implementation. So I think for CEOs listening to this podcast, it's important to sit down in a room with HR leadership and align on what the future looks like. Because HR has a lot of different responsibilities. There are a lot of needs that they're thinking about on a regular basis. But if we can think together about what does the future look like, what are our hiring needs going to be based on where we're headed as a company, then that's when the team can feel empowered to go out and talk to workforce providers, education providers, and say, hey, here's what we're seeing, you know, a couple years out that we need to be planning for now.

Emily Fabiano [00:24:45]:
So to answer the question directly, I think the best people are the ones who deal with hiring directly, but it has to be in close connection with the people who are deciding what the future of the company looks like.

Michael Schmierer [00:24:58]:
Yeah, I think that's going to be really good information for listeners that are in leadership to hear, because sometimes without employer participation, we don't know the demand and we're not maybe solving that right problem. So paint the picture for us. So Workmorphis comes in. You know, you've got buy-in from the state, you've got buy-in from a national nonprofit. You've got buy-in from an employer base. You know, what should, what's the outcome? What should the state expect to experience or feel once you kind of come in and are able to work with them to solve some of these problems or challenges?

Emily Fabiano [00:25:28,]:
What they should expect to feel is real outcomes that we're moving the needle on in a specific policy area. So if we think about it from the perspective of, let's say, like, fair chance hiring programs, for example, what you can expect is that we're going to get the right people to the table who have an influence on this from a workforce perspective, a higher education perspective for programs in institutions as well as the workforce system to ensure that these types of programs are possible, that we can increase awareness with employers, but also that we can provide the types of education and resources out there to get more employers engaged in fair chance hiring. So that's one example, but really trying to create real, tangible solutions that people can participate in that produce outcomes at scale, meaning more employers are doing fair chance hiring, more policy gaps are identified so that we can remove those barriers to employment and education. And although it sounds easy when you talk about it that way, a lot of these are really systemic challenges that span different agencies, different policy and legislation. So it's very hard work, but when you have the right leadership there, you can start to move the needle meaningfully across different agencies and programs.

Michael Schmierer [00:26:52]:
I really like that you said, “at scale” there, right? Because a lot of this work is being done in pockets and really well by people that have a lot of empathy and a lot of knowledge about what's going on. But we have to scale it. We have to not just scale it from a county, but to a region, to a state, et cetera. So I think that's key is that “at scale” piece in order to solve these supply and demand challenges that many states and the country is facing. It's been awesome to learn about the work that Workmorphis is doing. It's energized me. I'm wondering if there's anything else that we haven't talked about today that you, you'd want to touch on.

Emily Fabiano [00:27:30]:
Well, it's been a great conversation. I feel like we could talk for hours. And I appreciate the opportunity to scratch the surface on what you all are doing and what we're working on. I would say I think it's a pivotal time in workforce development, as I mentioned before, where we really can start to use data in new ways. And when we talk about data-driven leadership, I encourage everyone who's listening, if you have a role in workforce development, to be creative with how we use data, to be courageous. I was at the Jobs for the Future Horizons summit last week in D.C., and somebody there was saying, I think it was a funder, saying, we invest all this money in workforce, we have no daylight into the outcomes, and that is something that we can change. But in order to do that, we have to take a hard look at our systems. Another conversation that I was part of was a panel discussion with leaders from D.C. who recently embarked on this new P20W meaning across, like longitudinal data project, across pre-K, all the way through post-secondary and adult workforce development.

Emily Fabiano [00:28:42]:
And one of the points that they made is that we have to be courageous. When we open up this can of worms and start to dig into the data, sometimes we find things that don't feel good, right? They're not advantageous to talk about, but they're really important to address. So, for example, one of the leaders there shared that they uncovered a 20-year difference in life expectancy based on the zip code in D.C. that people live in. That is. I mean, that just gives me goosebumps to hear the difference there, that what's meaningful there is that they had courageous leadership that said, look, this is not great. This is not good at all. You know, this is something that we really have to own up to, and now that we know we can do something about it.

Emily Fabiano [00:29:27]:
So I think when we talk about data-driven leadership, it's about coming to the table, thinking differently and being courageous, not being afraid of what you'll find, but being motivated about how you can create solutions to what you find.

Michael Schmierer [00:29:40]:
And all the data shows meaningful work reduces many things, from mental health issues to recidivism. And so it has this ripple effect across many other, you know, state agencies, but also just the people that we live with in our communities and, you know, run into at the grocery store. And I think that small piece of just getting, having someone find hope in meaningful work can change a life. And it's, you know, what everyone in our industry, I think, strives to do every single day. So, again, I really appreciate this conversation. I know we just scratched the surface and we could go on for hours, but to hear more from Emily and follow her work on Workmorphis. You can find her on LinkedIn. You can also visit their website at workmorphis.com.

Michael Schmierer [00:30:25]:
Emily has her own podcast, so be sure to subscribe to her podcast Workmorphis Wired to hear more about all the cool things that her and her company are doing. As always, thank you for joining us on Data-Driven Leadership.

Don't forget to follow our podcast Data-Driven Leadership on any platform where you listen to your podcasts. Leave us a rating and review to let us know how we're doing and be sure to check out our other workforce mini series episodes. We're excited to have Emily and three others in the workforce industry talk about topics that are near and dear to them, so please do check those out. I think you'll find some really interesting insights.

Thank you for listening to my takeover of Data-Driven Leadership. For more on me and Resultant, check out the links in the show notes.