From Newcomer to Expert: The Data Secret Behind Crime Junkie’s Success with Founder, Ashley Flowers

Transcript

Show ID [00:00:01]:

The power of data is undeniable and unharnessed, it's nothing but chaos.

Show ID [00:00:06]:

The amount of data, it was crazy.

Show ID [00:00:08]:

Can I trust it? You will waste money held together with duct tape doomed to failure.

Jess Carter [00:00:13]:

This season we're solving problems in real time to reveal the art of the possible. Making data your ally, using it to lead with confidence and clarity, helping communities and people thrive. This is Data-Driven Leadership, a show by Resultant. 

Welcome back to Data-Driven Leadership. I'm your host, Jess Carter. But not today. Today your host is going to be Mark Caswell, and he is talking to his friend and this amazing guest we have today named Ashley Flowers. Ashley is an entrepreneur. She's incredible. She has a thousand things that are interesting about her, but she's most renowned for her true crime podcasts. Yes, I said podcasts. She is really interesting. And what I love about this episode is how much they kind of unpack. Really, like how will you even build a true crime podcast and how you think about that, which is interesting, but also data-driven podcasting. It's a really interesting episode about do we even have really mature data to understand if our podcasts are performing well or not? And what's one thing Mark asks, one of my favorite questions is what's one piece of data you wish you had about your listeners that you don't and what would you do with it? So just, it's a super interesting episode about how somebody is leveraging data or wishes they could leverage data differently than they can in a area that I think is fascinating. So let's get into it. I hope you enjoy it.

Mark Caswell [00:01:41]:

Okay. Welcome back to Data-Driven Leadership. I am guest hosting today. My name is Mark Caswell. I'm the former CEO of Resultant. I'm now on the board. Probably most importantly for this, I'm a data nerd, and I am thrilled, I am excited. I'm also very nervous because I have sitting across from me Ashley Flowers, a friend of mine.

Mark Caswell [00:02:02]:

But if you don't know Ashley, you might be living under a rock. She is, in my very humble opinion, the best podcaster in the US.

Ashley Flowers [00:02:09]:

Thank you.

Mark Caswell [00:02:09]:

She is also an author. If you haven't read her book, it is amazing. I've actually been told to ask you to please write a second book, which.

Ashley Flowers [00:02:16]:

I've already done it.

Mark Caswell [00:02:17]:

You have?

Ashley Flowers [00:02:18]:

The book has been turned in. Yeah. Now it's got to come out.

Mark Caswell [00:02:21]:

Yes. Okay. That is going to make a lot of people happy. But Ashley leads audiochuck and leads some amazing podcasts. Do you want to just like tell everybody, like, how in the world did you get into this world, like. Cause there's a lot of stuff going on.

Ashley Flowers [00:02:36]:

Yeah. And I didn't get into it in any traditional way. So audiochuck now is a full-fledged media company. We've got some stuff in T.V., we've got some stuff in publishing, and we've got over a dozen podcasts within our network. You know, we're a group of about 54 employees, like people making stuff here in Indianapolis. And I did not study journalism or media or broadcast or any of it. My degree is in biomedical research and I have just had a weird path. I've had a couple of jobs working at startup companies after college, and I fell in love with podcasting. I have always been very deeply invested in true crime, which is what most of our podcasts are about.

Ashley Flowers [00:03:19]:

And so I found my way here. So when podcasts were really starting to get traction, I kept waiting for this true crime podcast I wanted to hear, wanted to hear. No one was making it. So I thought, well maybe I can. I see like anyone, you know, who can buy a microphone on Amazon doing it, maybe I can try. So, thank God I had a little bit of that business sense from working with the startups. I put together my own little business plan.

Ashley Flowers [00:03:41]:

I created all my business docs ahead of time before I ever released a first episode, and I gave myself a year to make it my full time job or I was going to have to quit. And right at that year mark, really? Yeah, literally right at that year mark.

Mark Caswell [00:03:57]:

That's not a long time for, I mean you worked with startups, a year is not a long time in the startup land.

Ashley Flowers [00:04:02]:

It's not. I wasn't getting capital, I wasn't building like a physical product with manufacturing, but I also didn't have the time or the money. Like every dime was from my personal savings, unbeknownst to my fiance/husband. Right at the time I launched this, every dime was from my savings, and I couldn't quit my job unless this was going to be my job, and I couldn't do both. So I mean I was waking up at 05:00 a.m. I would do my podcast work from like 5:00 to 7:30, I'd go to work from 8:00 to 5:00 and then I would keep working on the podcast from like 5:00 to 10:00, and then twelve-hour Saturday, twelve-hour Sunday. You can't do that for more than a year. So yeah, one year.

Ashley Flowers [00:04:38]:

And if I wasn't getting the traction, I was gonna have to stop. And it worked out.

Mark Caswell [00:04:42]:

So I think people look at you now. It's a whole media company. There's all kinds of growth ahead of you all. What you've done is amazing. And then that little part of the story, like, the risk you took, the hard, like, just insanely hard work. And the biggest equivalent I have is my life. So my wife's a pediatrician, and I started dating her right before she went into residency. And then we were married while she was in residency.

Mark Caswell [00:05:08]:

And, like, for example, I moved to England for a little bit. I don't even know if she noticed I was gone. Cause she just worked so much.

Ashley Flowers [00:05:15]:

When I went to school, I thought I wanted to be a doctor. I was like, oh, I was gonna go the biology med school route. And I thank God I worked in a hospital full time while I was in college and putting myself through school, and I worked in urology right next to all of the residents. And that's literally what, like, talked me out of it. I was like, no, thank you.

Mark Caswell [00:05:33]:

No, thank you. They don't really. It's not in the brochure.

Ashley Flowers [00:05:36]:

No, no, for sure.

Mark Caswell [00:05:37]:

Okay, so I have to ask. So this is, like, maybe the first piece of data thing we can talk about. How did you define success at the end of a year?

Ashley Flowers [00:05:45]:

I needed to be able to pay my bills. So for me, it wasn't even like, I need to make the same amount of money. It's, can I pay my bills and do this without hurting my little family I was trying to build? We just got married, and so. And can I, you know, pay the other people who were. Because, you know, by the first year, my brother was helping me edit the show. I was wanting to, like, pay him. Britt was co-hosting. I wanted to pay her something.

Ashley Flowers [00:06:10]:

Could I actually, like, run this business without continuing to dump money into it and pay my bills? That was all that success was for me. I. At the time, I did not think I was going to have this media empire or was going to be the biggest independent podcast network. That wasn't the goal. I mean, I want to be the best. I want to be the biggest. I want to keep going. But it wasn't like, I have to be number one, or, I'm not doing this.

Ashley Flowers [00:06:34]:

I just had to be able to get by to do the thing that I love.

Mark Caswell [00:06:37]:

This is another theme I've noticed with a lot of successful startup folks. Is they. Well, actually, I talked to my Butler class. I'm teaching Entrepreneurial Accelerator at Butler, and I think a lot of students have been told, you start a business to make money. Like, that's what a business is. And, like, sure, I guess. And, you know, you have to be a good business person. But what you just said is, I started a business because I had a passion, I had curiosity.

Mark Caswell [00:07:03]:

I love to do this thing. And, boy, it'd be great if I could also eat.

Ashley Flowers [00:07:07]:

Yeah, how nice. Yeah. The rest was just like icing on the cake. I remember at one point saying, like, I could make half of what I'm making now, and I would be so happy because I would get to every day do this thing I'm so excited about doing. So having that kind of mindset and then if you get to make money on top of that and be successful is like, I feel like in a world where there's parallel universes happening, I'm in my favorite one. I won the jackpot.

Mark Caswell [00:07:37]:

Oh, that is awesome. That makes me so happy. But I would actually argue, I mean, we're not in a startup podcast at the moment, but you can't do that residency-level work and take that much risk because you didn't know it was going to work. You spent a year of your life that might have been for nothing. Right? You can't do that if you don't have passion. Right? And then that same passion.

Mark Caswell [00:07:57]:

Your job is still hard. I know you. I'm friends with you. Your job is still very hard. That's what sustains you through all the difficult parts of a business.

Ashley Flowers [00:08:04]:

Yeah. If this is just for money or if I. Man, everything would be. The days would be a lot longer. It would grind me, but I get lost in the work that I do. There's parts of the job that grind me like, nothing is all sunshine and rainbows. But when I get to do the creative stuff, when I get to do the stuff that I got to do when I started, I get lost in it. And five hours is 15 minutes.

Mark Caswell [00:08:29]:

And actually, your title now you're a founder, of course, but your title is Chief Creative Officer.

Ashley Flowers [00:08:35]:

Yes, I am, like, in the CEO role right now as well. We're in a bit of a transition, but the Chief Creative Officer role is really the one that I want to own. Like, that's where I have the most value for the company and what I get most excited doing is the creative side of things.

Mark Caswell [00:08:50]:

So freaking cool. Yeah, I love it. Okay, I want to ask you a couple. This is called Data-Driven Leadership, and so we should probably, like, talk about data. The thing that you said one time when we were chatting that to me said, like, oh, Ashley should come out on our podcast was you were talking about collecting all this information. And so, you know, in this crime world, you go back, I mean, decades to find stuff. I'd be curious to hear, like, what is the type of information that you can gather? Think back to when you started the business. Like, how did you even get to it? Just, like, describe for us that world of the information you pull together.

Ashley Flowers [00:09:24]:

Well, so this is especially true for cases where we do our own deep dive investigations. So there have been a number of either episodes or limited series where we have gone back to a cold case that is 10, 15, 20, 30, 40 years old and tried to reinvestigate it from the beginning. And the problem you find, even in discovering what the cases are, there is no centralized place within the country, even within a single department. For most departments, there is no centralized place that tells you all of their cold cases. I discovered this when I was working with a department, and I asked, like, how many cold cases do you have? And they kind of, like, pointed me at this filing cabinet, and they were like, probably whatever is in there, but, like, we don't really know. And I'm like, wait, who's keeping track of this? And there…no one. And it's just a process that's been, like, passed down from detective to detective. You hope somebody shares your family's case, and maybe they do, maybe they don't.

Ashley Flowers [00:10:33]:

Maybe it gets just written down and then lost. So finding the cases is difficult. And then if you do get into a case, there's nothing that, like, mandates how this stuff is stored, filed, recorded. So a lot of this stuff hasn't been digitized. So there will be right now. So we just requested a file from a department in three rivers, Michigan. And I've never seen a FOIA request come back like this. But they want $6,000 to scan everything and send us a USB because it's just, they say, sitting in boxes somewhere, and there is no centralized place that they have where all of their data is together.

Ashley Flowers [00:11:20]:

So forget trying to search it, scan it. I mean, they just don't even know what they have, and it becomes really difficult. I don't know. You're hoping someone goes to the right drawer in the right basement. Question mark.

Mark Caswell [00:11:36]:

Past in my life, I've heard people talk about FOIA requests and all these things, like the government is somehow hiding something on purpose. It sounds like it's, like, hidden on accident. It's out there somewhere, but nobody's really looking after it. It's not in digital form, so it's not searchable.

Ashley Flowers [00:11:50]:

And there is no, there doesn't seem to be any initiative. I'm sure some departments have, like, made it a priority, but there's no initiative or mandate that's stating that people need to make their stuff digitized. So it is like it's in someone's cabinet, maybe in the evidence room, if multiple departments or jurisdictions worked on a single case. You got some of the stuff in a box over here. You got some of the stuff in a box over here, some of the stuff in a filing cabinet over here. And again, God forbid some time goes by which will happen, you no longer even know what's where because that information isn't being tracked in so much as an excel spreadsheet.

Mark Caswell [00:12:30]:

Well, and then in many of your episodes, you cross state boundaries. And I imagine that just makes it worse and worse and worse.

Ashley Flowers [00:12:36]:

Yeah. And when you think about, like, this stuff that's happening with technology and the way that AI is being used, the applications it could have with crime solving and these law enforcement agencies, but we're just so far behind. Like, there's no way we could even use an application because the stuff is on a piece of paper in a box in a basement somewhere.

Mark Caswell [00:12:56]:

That is fascinating. Let's do a little imagination. So, well, you do a ton of advocacy work, personally, your organization. And if I'm kind of connecting the dots, you probably saw, well, advocacy is so important because the only way some of these cases even see the light of day or even anyone knows they exist, is that someone has to advocate for that to be found and for someone to do all that work and pull it together. So if we could find a way to digitize these things, do you think, like, it would just be that much easier?

Ashley Flowers [00:13:27]:

If it were digitized? Yes. You would almost need to make sure there was a list somewhere that listed all cold cases. Like, and how does that even happen? Who's responsible for maintaining that list, for publishing that list, for updating that list? Because, I mean, I'm not going to know about it. If there's never been a news article or I can't find an old news article, I don't know it exists.

Mark Caswell [00:13:55]:

Hence, back to the advocacy again, that's wild.

Ashley Flowers [00:13:59]:

Yeah, and you got it. And like, so many people that we work with are the family members. And that's why when you get older than, like 30, 40 years, there's not many people left around for cases. So a lot of times we're looking at family members, and it's the thing we've continued to tell them is, like, be the squeaky wheel that gets the grease, because again, the departments might not even know. Like, I would if one of my family members was murdered. I would just assume that the cold case was on everyone's radar. Like, why wouldn't it be? It's their job. The amount of times I've heard of families calling up a department and saying, like, hey, it's been, you know, ten years, 20 years.

Ashley Flowers [00:14:38]:

I'm just checking in, or, I just learned about this from my aunt. I didn't know what happened, and they're like, never heard of the case. I'll have to, like, look into it and get back to you. It's wild.

Mark Caswell [00:14:48]:

That is wild.

Ashley Flowers [00:14:48]:

Mm hmm.

Mark Caswell [00:14:49]:

All right, let me go, like, complete the other side of this. So that's the kind of doing the good and producing the product and everything in the world. You also have to run a business, it turns out. And in the early days, it was pretty easy. Can I buy ramen? Can I pay Britt? But now, I mean, you're running this massive team. You're all over the world with the work that you do. What is the data used to run the business today?

Ashley Flowers [00:15:14]:

I mean, it's a lot to do with we built our own fan engagement app or our own fan club app where people can get our content ad-free. They get extra content, and so we get a lot of data from there about who our listeners are and how they interact with our content. And it's been really critical because there really is no data anywhere else. And it's one of the hardest parts about podcasting. It feels like you're doing it in a box, like, literally and metaphorically, because you put out this RSS feed that just goes to any platform that will grab an RSS feed. You don't really get to pick and choose to. Biggest ones are Apple and Spotify, iHeart, maybe Pandora, SiriusXm.

Ashley Flowers [00:15:58]:

But nobody shares with you the data behind that. I don't know who's listening to my show or what the demographic is. We get very general, like, guesstimate information, but I can't, like, nail down anything. And so when you're trying to make decisions about content and about episode release cadence, all these different things, you're doing it without all of the data that you need. And even the platforms we use to publish our episodes. We're in such a new industry that the tech is being developed and refined as we're growing as a company. And so it's changing month by month, year by year, and we're having to adapt and figure it out as well.

Mark Caswell [00:16:47]:

Yeah, it's sort of shocking to me, actually, that so on YouTube, if you put a video out on YouTube, you can get all sorts of data on exactly who watched it, how long they watched it, when they engaged versus disengaged. In the podcast space, there's just none of that. Right. You might get, I think, from Apple, they'll give you, like, the number of downloads, but even that's changed.

Ashley Flowers [00:17:09]:

And the way that downloads or streams is measured changes all the time. So you're constantly, like, even goals you set for yourself, like, don't. You can't necessarily meet them or exceed them or even figure them out, because the way that you measure things is changing every five minutes. Apple will sometimes give you a listen through rate, which is helpful. Like, in general, though, like, people listen to 90 some percent of Crime Junkie, they're going back and listening to the deck. So the deck actually has, like, over 100% of a listen through rate. So we've got, like, you know, good numbers to show people, and it's great to tell a story, but it isn't ideal when I'm trying to actually plan.

Mark Caswell [00:17:54]:

You know, actually plan the business well, and so, okay, so I didn't know this, actually. So you created the fan app, of course, to engage fans, but a benefit of that is also you're now getting better data to run the business, to make decisions to enable engagement and things like that.

Ashley Flowers [00:18:09]:

Yeah. And direct line of communication with the people that are listening. The first employee I ever hired for audiochuck was a fan engagement specialist. So before I had anyone else full time, I was like, I've got to be able to talk to our fans, see their messages, figure out what it is they're talking about with one another, what it is they like, what they're looking for from me. And that has been so important, along with the data as well, is just a place where we can talk with them, because I think that's what gets ignored in podcasting a lot. It's such an intimate medium, and people feel like you're with them and talking to them. It feels two-way.

Ashley Flowers [00:18:45]:

And if you ignore the communication that's coming back, I think that's where the magic gets lost.

Mark Caswell [00:18:50]:

Yeah, that's really interesting.

Ashley Flowers [00:18:52]:

Yeah.

Mark Caswell [00:18:52]:

You don't think of podcast? Well, I don't think of it because I'm relatively new to it. You don't think of it as a two-way, but it can be two ways.

Ashley Flowers [00:18:57]:

Oh, yeah. Me and Britt are everybody. Everyone's two best friends. They're our third best friend. We say it every week. But if you're not listening to them, I mean, it's easy to get out of touch real quick.

Mark Caswell [00:19:07]:

So when you listen to one of your episodes, one of the things I'm struck by is, yes, the two of you are having a conversation. You end up feeling like the third person in the conversation, a quiet person at the moment because you can't talk back, but you do a good job of like, kind of sucking people in and like, we're in it together. But now I see why, right? Because you are actively listening and trying to get that feedback from the listeners. Very cool. If you could have one piece of information that you don't have today, what would it be?

Ashley Flowers [00:19:37]:

I think I would love to know from the platforms what else my listeners are consuming.

Mark Caswell [00:19:48]:

Oh, yeah.

Ashley Flowers [00:19:49]:

What other podcasts are they listening to? What music are they listening to? Knowing that about them would be really helpful in growing the business. And, you know, as we've gotten bigger and bigger, we can make friends with people at Spotify and they're willing to share a little bit with us, but we're not a Spotify podcast, you know what I mean? And they're not going to open up the doors to us. So if we had that in a dashboard, the way we can log in and just see our downloads, see our unique listeners, I think that would be.

Mark Caswell [00:20:19]:

And cross medium now, right? Because you're moving into T.V. and these different areas, we call that longitudinal data. And I have a whole soapbox speech on it that I will spare our listeners today. 

The other thing that struck me is you were talking about your fan app, and I think for a lot of our listeners that they'll speak to them. So as data has become more and more important, well, I actually remember it was probably ten years ago, I saw someone get up on stage and talk about the value of data and how much it was worth. And, you know, in my brain I'm like, it's just, it's like a bunch of ones and zeros on a computer. Like, of course that it just seems like nonsense. Well, now you see it, right? If you don't have control of your data, if you don't have rich data, if you don't have longitudinal data, you can't compete, you can't fulfill the mission, you can't engage, you can't run your business, right? So now all of a sudden you're like, oh, yes, it is worth literal millions of dollars to have your hands around this stuff and to control it and own it and be able to look at it.

Ashley Flowers [00:21:17]:

Yeah, I mean, we built an entire app and have an entire team that just runs that app. So we can a, give them a better fan experience, but b, learn about them and learn what's working with our content. It's literally the only way. Nobody is champing at the bit to give this information to podcasters. I mean, again, I said it earlier, it's so hard when it's so new, but you can't do. We don't get a lot of data about the way that ads are going into your show. You know it's happening, but even that's like a little bit of like a black box. There's not a ton of reporting around that.

Ashley Flowers [00:21:50]:

It's hard to do your forecasting.

Mark Caswell [00:21:52]:

Forecasting, forecasting, the bane of every CEO's existence.

Ashley Flowers [00:21:56]:

I mean, we literally just had one of our developers who's a developer for the app, but we pulled them aside and I think it's like something like spent six weeks developing a tool to try and help us do some forecasting. Even that, though, is not going to be perfect because we can't get full access to the system. We can only get a little bit and try our best, but it's just amazing what's not available. I think people think it's like a mature industry because podcasts have been popular for ten years, they've been around for longer, but it is still the wild west out there.

Mark Caswell [00:22:31]:

Well, it's one of those. It's born digital from the very beginning.

Ashley Flowers [00:22:35]:

So you're like, surely that. Surely. No, absolutely not.

Mark Caswell [00:22:38]:

Turns out nothing. I'm having a ton of fun. I do want to make sure you have a chance to talk about some of the advocacy work that you're doing. And so, first of all, anybody listening that has not listened to Crime Junkie or read your book, you just need to do it because it's amazing. I would guess we have some people listening that, you know, they're not kind of typically in your world, probably. Like, what would you say to folks about like, the advocacy work you're doing and what everybody can do to contribute to more justice for these folks?

Ashley Flowers [00:23:06]:

So my whole philosophy when starting the podcast was that I've been into true crime my whole life, but I've always had this feeling that you can't take from this community where you're hearing stories and you're getting entertainment from truly the worst time in people's lives. You can't take that without finding a way to give back. So long before I ever had the podcast, I would find ways to volunteer within the true crime community. And I did a lot of work with Crime Stoppers of central Indiana. I was on their board of directors. And so when I started the show, the advocacy was a big part, not just talking about cases, bringing awareness to cases, having calls to action, but actually contributing to nonprofits. In six and a half years, given over $8 million. And I actually started a nonprofit called Season of Justice, because the more I worked with law enforcement and families, so many times, I found out that the only thing that was standing in the way from testing, like, suspect DNA that they still had was funding.

Ashley Flowers [00:24:03]:

There's all these advancements in technology, but nobody had budgeted for that, and the money just isn't there. And so I would find out, like, yeah, you know, we could. We could probably figure out who this guy is, but we don't have $5,000. And that was wild to me. And I tried to just pay for stuff. Nobody wanted to take money from a media company. I get it. So I started the nonprofit in 2020, and the nonprofit has solved multiple homicides.

Ashley Flowers [00:24:32]:

It's given a ton of names back to Jane and John Does. And so I hope that that is going to go on to do a ton of great work. But, I mean, we've partnered with over, I think, 150 other nonprofits over the last six and a half years. Yeah. Yeah.

Mark Caswell [00:24:45]:

I think if you go out to audiochuck’s website, you see a lot of the other partners and things. That's great. So can folks contribute directly to.

Ashley Flowers [00:24:53]:

Oh, yeah. Season of Justice.

Jess Carter [00:24:54]:

Yeah.

Ashley Flowers [00:24:54]:

It's not. Again, it was founded by me, but it's. It's completely separate from audiochuck. Seasonofjustice.org dot. And if there's another episode or nonprofit, like, we. We call out, like, tons of educational opportunities, tons of nonprofits that we work with within the episode. And so it's like, find an episode that, like, touches you. Like, grabs your heart or you just get passionate about and figure out how to get involved there.

Mark Caswell [00:25:15]:

I love it. This will be a surprise to you. My favorite piece of data about your business. So I happen to be here for one of your all hands. And you stood up very solemnly in front of everyone and told them, you are feeding Chuck too many snacks.

Ashley Flowers [00:25:30]:

Yeah.

Mark Caswell [00:25:33]:

And you said, the number of calories Chuck is consuming.

Ashley Flowers [00:25:38]:

Talk about data points. I could, every time I was taking him to the vet, they're like, he's getting chubby. And I'm like, well, he's old. He's 13 now, right? Like, I'm gonna be chubby and happy when I'm 90 some years old, but every time it was going up and I'm like, I'm walking this guy. What's happening? And I noticed. Chuck's my dog, by the way. I noticed that I could correlate his weight with the number of employees that we were hiring because we were like, we were growing steadily over, like, two years.

Ashley Flowers [00:26:05]:

And I was like, oh, my God. So one night I put in Slack,  it was like, 08:00 p.m. and the amount of responses I got, I was like, hey, just like, quick survey. Who's giving chuck treats every day? Like, if you could just do, like, a quick. Here, here. 30 treats a day. And that was, like, a year ago.

Ashley Flowers [00:26:26]:

And I found out now, like, everyone's got, like, their routines with him. They've got their. Everyone's got a desk treat drawer that they're giving to him. So I had to stand in front of the company, and I was like, we're limiting it to five a day. I literally had to get a little whiteboard you have to mark off when you give him a treat. He's not happy about it.

Mark Caswell [00:26:42]:

No. But it is good for the best.

Ashley Flowers [00:26:44]:

It's for the best.

Mark Caswell [00:26:45]:

Yes. Data driven health. I have my own little spreadsheet for myself. Unfortunately, no one gives me treats. I give myself treats, but I still have to track them and take care of myself. I absolutely love that. Well, Ashley, like, thank you so, so much for coming on Data-Driven Leadership. I would encourage everyone here, listen to your podcasts, look out for everything that you are doing in the world.

Mark Caswell [00:27:05]:

Know for me, someone who is your friend and knows you, that, like, you do this because you care about the impact that you're making in the world, which I think all phenomenal companies have that behind them. And if you're so inclined, I would love it if you would contribute to Season of Justice or just find any way to help in this space for these people that could use a helping hand from the rest of us. So thank you.

Ashley Flowers [00:27:27]:

Thanks.

Mark Caswell [00:27:28]:

Real pleasure. This was fun.

Ashley Flowers [00:27:29]:

Thank you.